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1. It is the father who should be excommunicated and hanged.

   Posted By: Margaret Cook

2. Archbishop Jose Cardoso Sobrinho is a hypocrite. Why not excommunicate all of the chastity vow breakers associated with the Catholic Church? I suppose that God's word is only intended for the Commoners and not the Ordained. Archbishop Jose Cardoso Sobrinho decision is subjective and ignorant in comparison to the many atrocities that the Catholic Church has condemned upon the people over the centuries. Well, according to St. Malachy; the last Pope will be the 112th (Petrus Romanus, or Peter the Roman) upon which the city of seven hills shall be destroyed, and the dreadful Judge shall judge the people including the ordained and that includes Archbishop Jose Cardoso Sobrinho. Hey, excommunicate me in place of the Mother of the girl who was raped by her father. I mean it. I dare you to do it. Brian Stephen Baum

   Posted By: Brian Baum

3. I am ashamed to be a Catholic when the Church is prepared to treat little innocent children like that. The children have fallen prey to wicked, evil adults. How could a nine year old child be expected to give birth to twins after rape and live a happy CATHOLIC and peaceful life. It is a shocking indictment on the Church.

   Posted By: Margaret Bourke

4. Where is the condemnation of the stepfather in this issue? There will be little if any in my view.
   
   Rosemary Keenan WA

   Posted By: Rosemary Keenan

5. And so what has the Church done about excommunicating the rogue who caused the pregnancy in the first place.. Not even mentioned.
   
   So what's new...the male species still rule

   Posted By: Peg Saunders

6. Whilst I am pro-life to the core, I see this as a most insensitive move on the part of the Catholic Church in Brazil and totally lacking in compassion. I also see it as espousing misguided priorities, which further polarise the faithful against the Church. Honestly, what has happened to the adoptive father? Has he been excommunicated? Does the Church value potential life ahead of actual life? What on earth is the Church trying to achieve? No wonder Catholicism is being lost to Brazil exponentially to Evangelism - the authorities there have lost touch with the people, whom they are supposed to serve

   Posted By: Neil

7. While I was still at school (before 1950) there was a case reported in the "Truth" newspaper of agirl of 8 years delivering a living full term baby.
   For those who remember the "Truth" newspaper as an Australian publication, you would recall its focus was on evidence for divorce proceedings and other such "scandalous" grist for their mill. Went to the wall after "no fault" divorce became the norm.
   

   Posted By: C Hutton

8. No wonder more people are joining the "Catholics in Exile" community.This item causes for more "scandal" than the abortion in order to give this girl dignity and the right to life.
   
   Archbishop Jose Cardoso Sobrinho comes across in this media report as a cold heartless man who offers no condemnation of the rape of this innocent child.
   
   This man should be retired and sent to religious "coventry". His statement of excommunication should be ignored and will lose its validity as it is not accepted by the community.
   
   
   

   Posted By: Tony Robertson

9. Peg, Neil, Tony
   
   perhaps you could familiarise yourself with the Church's teaching on abortion. If you did you would know that this was simply the church being true. There is nothing that should be seen as extraordinary here.
   
   Any Catholic who deliberately and knowingly obtains a procured abortion commits a mortal sin and is also automatically excommunicated, under canon 1398.
   
   Under the laws of secular society, if one person commits a crime, then anyone who deliberately and knowingly provides essential or substantial means for that person to commit that crime is called an accessory to that crime and is also subject to the penalties of law. Similarly, any Catholic who deliberately and knowingly provides essential or substantial means for any woman to procure an abortion also commits a mortal sin and also incurs the same sentence of excommunication.
   
   Any Catholic who substantially assists another in the deliberate sin of abortion is also guilty of serious sin and also incurs a latae sententiae excommunication.
   
   My own thoughts are that this is an utterly tragic case, but abortion is adding violence to violence and the most innocent are those who pay the ultimate price - execution.
   
   Tony, your thoughts about how legal process should work are worrying in the extreme - the rule of law can be overriden because the Zeitgeist doesn't agree. As a Catholic I don't subscribe to such a relativist, and therefore ultimately anarchistic approach to law.
   
   Peg, I share your revulsion at the rape and the rapist but the guilt and punishment of the rapist are a separate matter that don't really have any bearing on the abortion.

   Posted By: Louise

10. Margaret Bourke, there were three innocent children here. Two have been murdered and one is left to live with the consequences.

    Posted By: Louise

11. Thanks for your correction Louise. It seems there is an army of anti-Catholic "Catholics" out there who are constantly on a hair-trigger to jump on their keyboards to condemn the Church based on a superficial reading of an article and a profound ignorance of the facts.
    
    I need only add to Margaret Bourke, that excommunication of a minor is IMPOSSIBLE. The excommunication applies only to those who procured the abortion.
    
    As for Neil who claims to be "pro-life to the core" and in the same breath calls a four-month old unborn baby "a potential life", and Tony who claims that forcibly aborting the baby of a nine-year-old will "give her dignity and the right to life", I can only hang my head and cry at their cruelty and absurdity.

    Posted By: Ronk

12. Once again, the institutional Church presents her uncaring face to the world. In Latin America, to name but one region, how often has the Church remained silent and not excommunicated Presidents, heads of Juntas etc who have perpetrated the most vile acts of deprivation of liberty and life, torture, rape, murder ?
    
    And yet here, the tough stance is taken.
    
    Is the same extreme penalty given to those Cardinals, Archbishops, Bishops, priests, religious brothers and sisters who have broken other of God's laws? I am sure not.

    Posted By: Xavier Justinian

13. Louise
    
    There is nothing "true" in this absurd decision of the Brazilian bishops.
    
    It is very unlikely that a nine-year-old girl could carry even one fetus let alone two to term and probably not even to the point of viability.
    
    And even if she did carry them to the point of viability, who was going to pay for the resources to support two prem babies?
    
    The most likely consequence would have been that all would die, the girl in agony.
    
    The RCC yet again can't help itself and falls into the trap of being ridiculous.

    Posted By: Richard Moore

14. I am very pro-life but I disagree with the punishment in this case. You cannot weigh this the same way as aborting twins in a 20 year old as the result of consensual sex. Physically for a nine year old to deliver twins might be life threatening. I am in favour of the Church's teachings but disagree on the Church's prohibition of abortion when the mother's life is threatened. I agree too that the father should be excommunicated for such a heinous crime.

    Posted By: Brenda Martin

15. Doesn't anyone see beyond the headlines and sensationalism. The secular media will never publish anything good about the Church in a case like this. The bishop may have said much more, he may have outlined all the Church was willing to do for the family etc. before stating the obvious fact that all those who are responsible for the abortion are excommunicated.
    Having said this the Church has never been good at communicating sensitive issues like this and keeps falling into the traps the media lay out for it.

    Posted By: annemie

16. Dear Ronk
    
    I take your point - 'potential life' is certainly not the wording I intended to use. I AM pro-life to the core, but I don't see abortion as being of a higher priority than any other life issue. Just for the record, the foetus is actual life, not potential life.
    
    I do however believe that this is another example of mishandling of an extremely sensitive issue that should be treated with utmost caution. The Church should be helping those in need, not condemning them. I would have also thought that the principle of double effect may have had application in this scenario (obviously not if the intention is to actually abort, but to save the nine-year old girl). Has the Church actually said or done anything to assist her? Whichever way you look at it Ronk, the Church has got to be careful of double standards

    Posted By: Neil

17. And with 100% predictability, the raven squawks in to defend the indefensible and to attack less righteous Catholics.
    
    The raven's faith is all head and no heart.

    Posted By: Richard Moore

18. The child is 9 years old. Her plight comes about as a result of being sexually abused by an adult man, from the time she was 6 years old.
    Energy should go into the circumstances where that has happened to a child. Protecting children from sexual abuse should be the priority here.
    Expecting the uterus of a 9 yr old child to carry twins, is making that little girl a victim, twice over.
    Expert medical advice is the decider in such a case.
    

    Posted By: Marie H

19. Suffice to ask the question that nobody has so far asked "What would Jesus have done"? Certainly not applied canon 1398 or any canon law! There appears very little compassion evident in all those who back the action of the Archbishop!

    Posted By: Peter Meury

20. Another article I read on the lifesitenews site suggests that doctors at the first hospital the mother took the child to said the girl was not in danger, so she then took her to another hospital. It appears that the mother was looking for a particular answer to the situation, ie a doctor who would perform the abortion. She has done this knowing that the Church condemns abortion. We do not know what the Church would have done to support the girl and her children. They were not given a chance to offer support.
    
    BTW the Stepfather is under arrest, awaiting trial. He also is effectively (though not formally) excommunicated as he has committed a mortal sin and therefore must confess before he can be admitted to the sacraments.

    Posted By: Louise

21. Xavier, the Church has indeed not hesitated to excommunicate murderous politicians, clergy and religious whenever she thought it would improve the situation. And a clergyman who commits murder automatically forfeits the clerical state.
    The Church has taken no “stance” here. The Abp has merely reminded people of the excommunication which automatically applies to ALL abortionists.
    
    As for Richard Moore’s rather meaningless and insulting term “point of viability”, there have indeed been cases of babies who have survived birth at ages even younger than these babies. And cases of mothers of this age and younger successfully giving birth to twins. The assertion that children should be murdered because of a possible lack of resources to support them, or because their mother might die in childbirth, is contemptible as well as ridiculous.
    
    Brenda & Neil, there is nothing in the article to suggest that this was a case of ectopic pregnancy or similar situation, where the death of the babies is the UNINTENDED consequence of an operation to save the mother, where the principle of double effect would come into play (and in which case it would not be an abortion at all).
    
    Marie H, protecting children from sexual abuse should be the second priority here. Protecting children from murder, the ultimate in child abuse, should be the #1 priority.
    Such forcible abortions carried out on a very young mother are frequently motivated by the desire to hide sexual abuse. There is no indication whether the grandmother was even questioned as to whether this was her motivation in collusion with her husband.
    
    “What would Jesus do?”
    I imagine He would say with the Abp, "God's law is above any human law. So when a human law is contrary to God's law, this human law has no value.''
    It would be typical of Him to add, “You have heard how it was said, ‘punish children for the sins of their fathers’, but I say to you, do not murder and assault children just because their father is accused of rape.”
    

    Posted By: Ronk

22. LOUISE, thank you for a moment of sanity in this discussion. We know very little of the events after the pregnancy was discovered. The anti-Catholic international press is hardly going to report any church help offered the girl, assuming, as you note, the Church agencies even had a chance.
    
    The histrionic outburst by Brian Stephen Baum would be amusing if the subject were not so tragic.
    Cardinal Jose Cardoso Sobrinho did not excommunicate any one. The adults involved directly in the double murder were excommunicated automatically.
    
    It is almost unbelievable that Brian Baum accepts as authentic the 16th century fraud attributed to the 12th century St Malachy.These so called prophecies are about as genuine as the afternoon newspapers' astrology predictions.
    
    Brian Baum's mock "King James language"..."upon which the city of seven hills shall be destroyed" etc... is about as valid as the rest of his contribution.
    
    Unfortunately,Brian Baum, in spite of your offer to be excommunicated in place of the murdering mother, you will not.Under the present code, poorly expressed faux outrage and ignorance are not offences susceptible to excommunication.
    

    Posted By: Marco Elliott

23. Excommunication is the toughest penalty the church can use, it is only used publicly infrequently. Muder of the innocent is the biggest crime in the book therefore it attracts the highest penalty. Abortion is the murder of the innocent, anyone involved in abortion is excommunicated. Rape and child molestation are also most heinous crimes, and the perpetrator excommunicates him or herself, just by committing them.

    Posted By: Derek Jones

24. Where is the compassion? This is a child - say Year 3/4 at an Australian school? Think about it and put yourself in this position. What would you do?
    
    This child was RAPED by an adult who will still be able to call himself a Catholic.
    
    So what if the mother went to other Drs. I would certainly have done the same if this was my child. Twins for a woman to carry is one thing but this poor little thing would most likely be so damaged that she would never live a normal life after this.
    
    Imagine she is your daughter, carrying babies that her little body just can't manage, then giving birth.
    
    Give me a break? This church is run by MEN.

    Posted By: Anne

25. Disgusting that the church excomunicated the mother and doctors helping the victim, but not the rapist.
    
    That is so un-christian

    Posted By: L N

26. Hi Peter Meury
    
    Before asking "What would Jesus have done?" for the girl, ask yourself this first.
    
    If Jesus was the girl, what would Jesus have done?
    
    Whilst I truly feel for the girl, had Jesus been as self-preserving as most of us are, my guess is he would've just told the Father that he didn't want the chalice and walked away from Gethsemane on the night of the arrest.
    
    The girl's life was indeed in danger. The girl is innocent. But, Jesus' life was in danger and he was also innocent, but he not only "risked" his life for the cause, he actually died from it.
    
    So, if Jesus was the girl, would he have simply said "Well...I can't support them. I might die giving birth. So, let's just kill these poor buggers. I'm sure the Father will understand..."?

    Posted By: Joey

27. To continue, I think too many of us have stopped thinking about the eternal. And I do not exclude myself from this either. We're too blinded by this life and this life only.
    
    In lots of ways, even if we were to suppose that girl died giving birth, if I were in the situation, I'd rather die giving birth and enter heaven, rather than live good life here and go into judgment with the blood of the two innocent lives on my hands.
    
    In other words, I'd rather be an innocent victim.

    Posted By: Joey

28. Of note, in the News today, Cardinal Giovanni Battista Re, head of the Congregation for Bishops, and head the Pontifical Commission for Latin America, has spoken out in support of Archbishop Cardoso Sobrinho. Why has CathNews not published this news?
    

    Posted By: Louise

29. How can the archbishop hear a story as sad as this one and then choose to make matters worse by excommunicating the adults who tried to help a traumatized 9-year old girl? Where is the compassion in that? Sick. No child should be saddled with the responsibility of raising children, or have to suffer more heartbreak by giving birth and giving them up. She could have died from the childbirth if they allowed the pregnancy to come to term. She might have never been able to conceive again. I hope the adults who have been cut loose by the Catholic church see it as good riddance instead of punishment. Who needs that?

    Posted By: Dawn Michelle

30. I too am pro-life to the core. Unlike some of your correspondents, I don't see the chorus of protest as an attack on the Church's teaching or on God's law - I see it as a protest against the emphasis given by the public leaders of the Church. They choose to see one major sin - that of abortion. Why hasn't the father of the children been denounced? The poor little girl has been robbed of her ability to choose by her parents and by the state. We - the Church - should be standing beside her, in private and in public. Too many girl-children are routinely used and abused by men all over the world, in every society - why isn't this a major issue for the Church, as abortion rightly is? Who stands by the living child if we don't? Is it just that abortion is easier to denounce because we can't actually do anything after the fact? This child still lives - let's hear what the Church has to say about what happened to her and continues to happen to countless thousands of others!

    Posted By: Joan Seymour

31. I think too many of the posters here are men who just have NO IDEA.
    
    You can never ever put yourself in the shoes of a 9 year old girl who has been sexually abused for years and then pregnant as soon as her poor little body is mature enough to start her periods.
    
    Where is the love and care for this child, surely God does not condone what has happened to her? If He is prepared to forgive the evil creature that has brought her to this, then He should be prepared to forgive her and the people who cared for her.
    
    For the sake of any other children in this situation, think about what you are saying.
    
    The very thought of the mental damage down to this girl alone by the filth of a man's sexual desires is enough to make me want to throw up without expecting a child to carry and give birth to twins to this creature.
    
    This seems to be another case of turning a blind eye to sexual abuse of children at the expense of the child just for the name of the church.
    

    Posted By: Anne

32. And another thing. Why did CathNews use the word "allegedly"? There's no 'allegedly', people. If she's nine years old and was pregnant she was certainly raped. Some of your correspondents also seem to be putting a measure of blame on this poor little victim. She's innocent. And, Joey, that means she's innocent of the blood of the twins, too. Surely you don't think she had any choice? Her choices were taken away from her by the man who raped her and by her mother and by the medical authorities. That's why it's so important that the Church stand by her, the most powerless person deprived by anyone else of the ability to 'choose life'!

    Posted By: Joan Seymour

33. I honestly think child abuse is much much worse than abortion. That should be ranked the worst thing to do. So the church ex-communicates the girl and her mother but NOT THE FATHER? This disgusts me. It makes me ashamed of the Vatican for not stepping in and reversing this. I dont know how much more of the Vatican's hypocrisy I can deal with.
    I agree, the father should be excommunicated and put in general population with his wrists still in cuffs.
    
    Nobody should ever lay their hands on children like that, never. Nobody should get away with it.

    Posted By: Noreen

34. Very, very sad for all. Is this report accurate? I cannot believe the lack of understanding or compassion for those who had to deal with this sad situation, the mother and the doctors. Is not one's informed conscience the highest authority AND who told the bishop and/or the Brazillian press about this very private decision? Is anything confidential anymore?

    Posted By: Mary Liesch

35. This doesn't surprise me in the least. Typical day in the life of Catholicism. Human society evolves and changes while the church insists on clinging to 2000 year old traditions. It makes itself more obsolete every single day.

    Posted By: Mr. Brown

36. Anne,
    
    do you honestly think this little girl will be able to live a normal life after the double horrors of sexual abuse and abortion!?! Do you think the abortion has somehow improved her chances of that normal life you spoke about? The abortion itself was a huge risk to take but thankfully, she survived.
    
    Two wrongs do not make a right! When God gave us the commandment, Thou shalt not kill, I think he meant it.
    
    This is a heart-wrenching tragedy that fills me with sadness. Our sinful nature made a mess of things but as always if we give God a chance He will create something good from the ashes.
    
    Three children could have survived this mess, now there is one left. Pray for her and never despair!
    
    God is good!
    
    

    Posted By: Adrian

37. NOREEN, how many times do you need to be told? The girl involved in the tragic Brazilian abuse case has NOT been excommunicated.She is a minor.
    
    

    Posted By: Marco Elliott

38. Tony Abbott MP got it right last night on Q and A (ABC TV) when he said that the Archbishop handled the matter very poorly.

    Posted By: Frizza

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