Have Your Say 

Recent Comments

1. Is Fr Kennedy the Mary MacKillop of our day? Remember the Holy Spirit works in many ways.

   Posted By: Michael G

2. Fr Kennedy said the threats of penalties and punishment were to be expected, because the St Mary's-in-exile congregation posed a "real confrontation to the Church's patriarchal and hierarchical culture."
   
   
   Has he ever read that the Vatican II document on the Church supports the notion of the Church as a hierarchy?
   
   
   "This Sacred Council, following closely in the footsteps of the First Vatican Council, with that Council teaches and declares that Jesus Christ, the eternal Shepherd, established His holy Church, having sent forth the apostles as He Himself had been sent by the Father; and He willed that their successors, namely the bishops, should be shepherds in His Church..." Chapter 3 Lumen Gentium.
   
   In fact a whole chapter (#3) of the Vatican II document on the Church sets out the hierarchical nature of the Church as a positive thing coming down from the time of the apostles.
   
   http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html
   
   

   Posted By: Arabella

3. Why has not the Archdiocese also obtained a legal injunction to prevent Kennedy and his denomination calling themselves "St Mary's Catholic Community South Brisbane"? There is one Catholic community in South Brisbane and Kennedy and his followers have definitively rejected being members of it, not to mention Kennedy's calumnies against St Mary the Blessed Mother of the Church.

   Posted By: Ronk

4. Ronk, I'm not sure where on earth you come from! You seem to have an opinion on everything that is written on any topic from what I have read. As for calumnies against Mary - you leave me speechless. Surely you can see that the Archbishop and the diocese are the biggest losers in all of this, and it would appear they are finally realizing this through their ongoing threats against Peter (and the previous community of St Mary's). One of the biggest mistakes of the Archbishop and his auxiliary bishops is their failure to be true shepherds to the people who formed the community of St Mary's and come, meet, and talk with them and listen to what they had to say, and get to know them.

   Posted By: Lorraine

5. How can Archbp Bathersby seriously consider throwing Fr Kennedy out of the Catholic Church just because he rejects the divinity of Christ? So what? It would be like throwing out a card-carrying member of the Feminist Organization for Women's Liberation (or F.O.W.L. aka "chicks") who did not believe in the equality of women and men from. Right?

   Posted By: jonah

6. Will those priests convicted of paedophilia also have their priestly duties, ability to function as a priest altogether ceased, and possibly face excommunication? If this doesn't even happen to those priests who have really caused incredible harm to the catholic community, and who have been responsible for the suicide of several victims in one case that I am aware of, why would this penalty be even considered?

   Posted By: Concerned

7. Dear Michael G,
   The Holy Spirit does work in many ways but never contrary to the mind of Christ as expressed in the Scriptures and through the Church. As such Fr Kennedy cannot claim the Holy Spirit in his battle against obedience to the Church and her apostolic hierarchy.
   As for your comparison between Mother Mary MacKillop and Fr Kennedy, it is a no show. Mary MacKillop never went against the liturgy of the Church to do her own, she didn't conduct baptisms with formulas that are dubious, borderline and perhaps even invalid. Mary never gave blessings to sinful unions either.

   Posted By: Michael Webb

8. “he could lose the right to conduct masses, except in emergency circumstances.”
   I understand a laicised priest has no right to celebrate Mass under ANY circumstances. The only Sacrament he may administer is to hear the Confession of a dying person and absolve him if it is impossible for a legitimate priest to get there in time. (Though I’d be surprised if Kennedy doesn’t consider that the Sacrament of Reconciliation is also “medieval gobbledygook”. )
   And of course to baptize in an emergency under the same circumstances in which any person, even an atheist, may do so. Though if Kennedy used his usual formula the “baptism” would be no baptism at all.
   
   And still the Courier-Mail persists in doggedly repeating, contrary to all the evidence, the nonsensical assertion that Kennedy was removed because of “allegations he engaged in unorthodox practices [sic], including changing words in liturgies and blessing divorced and gay couples”.
   

   Posted By: Ronk

9. In view of official consistant "Catholic tradition" which Fr Kennedy has denounced, I'd like to know what he means by saying "we are in the Catholic tradition."

   Posted By: Leighton

10. No Mary Mackillop is the opposite of Father Kennedy She instructed her sisters to remain totally obedient to the Bishop who had excommunicated her and placed her total trust in the Holy Spirit during this trying time -a trust which was totally vindicated when the excommunication was later lifted.

    Posted By: He is no Mary Mackillop!

11. Michael G, to mention this man and Bl Mary MacKillop in the same breath is obscene. Bl Mary was always loyal and totally obedient to the Divinely appointed hierarchy of the Church and there has never been the slightest suggestion that she was ever anything but completely orthodox.
    
    And we have it on Christ’s authority that the Holy Spirit will never lead anyone away from His Church. Anyone who turns his back on the Church and her authority is rejecting the Holy Spirit and following another spirit.
    

    Posted By: Ronk

12. Peter, there's still time for you to have a change of heart. I don't know that any other priest in the archdiocese has publicly endorsed anywhere what you are doing. We admire you for the good you've been able to do in the past and we recognize the marvellous fidelity of the South Brisbane community to gospel values especially concerning things to do with social justice but where is this community now? Really? In exile or in limbo?

    Posted By: Joe Duffy

13. What a sad man is Kennedy. And what an interesting spectacle it is watching those within the Church with a 60's deconstruction mindset coming out of the woodwork.
    
    It's comical to note the amazing co-incidence that this so- called maverick mirrors almost completely the beliefs of the surrounding culture, (which is now a massive philosophical and cultural machine promoting anti-Christian beliefs) and yet pretends to be fighting an oppressive orthodoxy!? More like capitulating to it. On top of this he has the gall to claim that not only is he correct, but more - that Catholic tradition has been wrong all along, he knows where and how and that therefore he is the truly faithful Catholic!
    
    He is a man who does not know how much he needs an actual Saviour.

    Posted By: Martin

14. It is becoming more and more apparent that the entire situation and debacle caused by Fr Kennedy has very little, if anything at all, to do with the people or community he says this is all in aid of. It is all about him, his pride and him getting his own way.
    
    Archbishop Bathersby does NOT deserve this, nor does the Church in Queensland - a Church leading the Australian Churches in pastoral care and leadership.
    
    Come on Peter, the people you say you are serving and the rest of the Church needs to be reconciled more than it needs continued conflict.
    

    Posted By: Nicky

15. I think the good bishop is wasting his time dealing with this priest.

    Posted By: Brian

16. On their bulletin there is the following quote from Laurel C Schneider:
    "That God cannot be embodied except, for example, in the ecclesiastically controlled, historical event of an individual man from Nazareth is hubris of the highest degree."
    This is a community who uses the name of the Mother of "the individual man from Nazareth", something which would pain a great deal of people ie. everyone who believes that the individual Man from Nazareth is our Saviour and that his Mother is very special.
    It is beyond me why they want to be part of the Catholic Church if they reject the most basic of our teachings.
    Each side deserves to be respected for their opinions and views, the Catholics deserve the respect from the Community to the extent that the Community does not "pretend" to be catholic and the Community deserves the respect to be acknowledged as a separate community who has its own beliefs and does cater for a lot of people who are alienated from the Catholic Church and other Christian denominations.
    Both can happily co-exist. But if Father Kennedy claims to be teaching the "catholic" faith he is misleading and confusing his followers and they deserve better as I am sure they are all very genuine in their beliefs and convictions.
    As the Catholic Church believes exclusively in this Man of Nazareth, a community who obviously cannot accept the Apostles Creed can call itself a lot of different names except "catholic".
    Why not go with a name like "the All Encompassing Church" as one of their main aims is to welcome everybody (except maybe conservative Catholics).
    Father Kennedy and probably Father Fitzpatrick should just simply ask to be laicised as far as the "Catholic Church" is concerned and everyone will be happy.
    

    Posted By: annemie

17. It's interesting that the photo of Fr Kennedy has him surrounded by mostly young people, as if his counter-Church message resonates among the 'future of the Church.' I suggest that the reality is otherwise, that the vast majority of his followers belong to the worn 1960s 'hippie' generation which has largely proved not only to be faithless but also fruitless.

    Posted By: Michael Bernard

18. "Ronk, I'm not sure where on earth you come from".
    Good to read your replies (from across the ditch) to so many 'Catholics gone wrong'. Keep it up mate. The Truth must prevail.

    Posted By: mark

19. Dear Michael Webb,
    Surely all language to refer to God is analogical - including Trinity, Father Son and Holy Spirit etc St Augustine named God as - 'the love , beloved and lover'
    Even the liturgy evolves and can never be set in concrete.
    Michael G

    Posted By: Michael G

20. "come, meet, and talk with them and listen to what they had to say, and get to know them"
    
    OK, let's bench test this model of shepherd.
    I'm a sheep. I really like green lucerne. I am too stupid to know that eating it will cause me bloat. So the shepherd just comes down and hangs out with us because, you know, he's getting to know how the sheep would like to be shepherded ...
    Oh dear, we all died of bloat.
    
    The bishop is a shepherd who is charged with guarding his flock against spiritual death. By all accounts Fr Kennedy has eschewed the truths of the faith.
    
    Time for this to stop

    Posted By: Peter

21. “Concerned”, you seem to imply that you think there are some priests who have been convicted of child sexual abuse, who have not yet been forcibly retired, permanently suspended from clerical duties, laicised (dismissed from the clerical state) or excommunicated. Would you please name them?
    
    Michael Webb, there’s not even any “dubious”, “borderline” or “perhaps” about it. Kennedy’s ersatz “baptism” is definitely invalid and anyone who received it is unbaptised and will need to be baptised “in forma absoluta” i.e. not conditionally but the same way as anyone else who is definitely known to have never been baptised:
    http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20080201_validity-baptism_en.html
    “First question: Whether the Baptism conferred with the formulas «I baptize you in the name of the Creator, and of the Redeemer, and of the Sanctifier» and «I baptize you in the name of the Creator, and of the Liberator, and of the Sustainer» is valid?
    Second question: Whether the persons baptized with those formulas have to be baptized in forma absoluta?
    RESPONSES
    To the first question: Negative.
    To the second question: Affirmative.
    The Supreme Pontiff Benedict XVI, at the Audience granted to the undersigned Cardinal Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, approved these Responses, adopted in the Ordinary Session of the Congregation, and ordered their publication.
    Rome, from the Offices of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, February 1, 2008.
    William Cardinal Levada, Prefect
    Angelo Amato, S.D.B.
    Titular Archbishop of Sila, Secretary
    

    Posted By: Ronk

22. Joe Duffy asks 'where is this community now'. I can't speak for Peter Kennedy or the community, but I can speak for myself as one of its members. Where I am now Joe is on the cross with Jesus. I'm not asking for anyone - bishop, priest or laity - to endorse what I'm doing. I don't need your endorsement or your permission. And I don't want your admiration for good works. What I want is to be allowed to act with integrity, faithful to an understanding of God, Jesus and Church that makes sense to me as an educated Catholic woman struggling to live a Christian life in the 21st century.
    
    As for a change of heart, I pray every day for a change of heart. And that prayer always leads me to the same place - on the cross. It might be exile. It might be limbo. It's certainly not crowded. And sometimes it's frightening and painful. But for me it's truth, and in the words of St John, the truth will make you free. For me, it's the only place to be.

    Posted By: Gaye Keir

23. Such a sorry business. I would like the Archbishop to put an end to this by giving Father Peter and his followers a private audience at his residence and then quietly but firmly outline how Father Kennedy's words and actions are at odds with Church teaching eg the virgin birth and then say they have Father Howelll as their new pastor and Father Kennedy has the choice of a year of reflection and prayer as a guest at one of the enclosed contemplative orders after which he may apply for a new parish, take retirement or apply to be dispensed from his vows.

    Posted By: Time for decisive action.

24. Given the nature of some of the comments made, and their frequency, and two letters received I would be grateful to " RONK " to know who he is as he knows me and my postal address. Given the level of pontificating, and his policy of honesty, perhaps he could be honest with all of us who give our REAL names regardless of the issue. What are you afraid of "RONK "

    Posted By: Davidanthony Davies

25. What are YOU afraid of, “Davidanthony Davies”? That silly name surely cannot be real? And on what grounds do you assert that my name is not real? Turn down the paranoia a bit. I’d certainly remember if I knew anyone by that name. Your postal address might be on Mars for all I know. Some would-be-popes here may “pontificate”; but I do not claim that anything is de fide unless the REAL pope has declared it to be so.

    Posted By: Ronk

26. I always assumed, as cryptography runs in the family,that RONK was a contraction of RONald Knox the translator or the Bible in a modern form.I always look forward to Ronk's comments for his passion sincerity and belief. He clearly thinks a lot, researches well and has a scientific background as well as one in arts. Perhaps if he enters into correspondence it would be preferable if it were silent on these pages,which would require a confidential return address.

    Posted By: Lewis P Buckingham

27. David, if you're receiving letters with which you're uncomfortable, don't be afraid to contact the police.

    Posted By: Monk

28. Lorraine, are you claiming that Kennedy has NOT published calumnies against St Mary?
    
    “ongoing threats”? “mistakes”? Abp Bathersby is obviously hugely devoted to meeting and listening to people. If anything, TOO much. Kennedy has clearly set out to do everything he can possibly think of to provoke the endlessly patient and long-suffering Abp Bathersby to excommunicate him. All of Abp Bathersby’s pastoral, kind and sympathetic overtures have been met with nothing but a brick wall and abuse in the media by Kennedy. I’m sure in hindsight Abp Bathersby realises that his mistake was in failing to remove Kennedy years ago when he first became aware that he was blatantly contradicting essential Christian doctrines and administering fraudulent sacraments. It might have even snapped Kennedy out of his self-centred delusions back to Catholicism at that stage. Now it appears too late.
    

    Posted By: Ronk

29. Fr Kennedy is the Christ like person in all of this. Fr Kennedy you have the total support of myself and my very committed Catholic family. God Bless. I am also very certain there are a lot more Catholics behind you than you realise. In all, our prayers and support.

    Posted By: Bernadette McPhee

30. Incredibly, Kennedy is still receiving a salary from the Archdiocese of Brisbane. Regardless of any other action taken, Abp Bathersby should immediately stop paying Kennedy for doing nothing to help, and much to hinder, Catholicism in Brisbane. I'm sure the archdiocese can't afford this, and it's certainly not what the faithful intend when they put their offerings on the plate in order to promote Catholicism in Brisbane.

    Posted By: Ronk

31. Bernadette McPhee,
    
    With all due respect, will you please stop referring to Peter Kennedy as being Christ-like. It is not only highly innaccurate, it is also highly offensive to Catholics, Protestants, and anyone who knows anything about what Jesus said and did.
    
    Ultimately, it is offensive to Christ himself. May he forgive you.

    Posted By: Paul Keen

32. This may seem a strange comment by someone who is opposed to what Fr Peter Kennedy has done, but I'd like to ask where are the 1000 people who marched down to the TLC with him a few weeks ago? It would seem to me that there are a lot of Catholics who have played a part in 'creating' Peter Kennedy, as an 'alternative catholic priest', but now that the rubber has hit the road, he will be deserted by these trendy, middle class catholics and left to fend for himself.
    
    I suspect that Peter Kennedy is a rather simple-hearted man, without great political and religious intentions that has been somewhat 'hijacked' by the anti-orthodox-Catholic church mob. He has become their 'pin up boy', but I wonder whether they will suffer as much as Peter when he loses the right to serve as a Catholic priest?
    
    As someone who has had my fair share of 'barnies' with the Catholic church, I would like to say to Peter and his mob, don't cut yourselves off. The Church can contain a huge variety of movements and ministries... we can disagree on a whole bunch of stuff ... but we may have to just step out in faith, when it comes to our leadership - maybe you can't see anything good about being connected to the structures and hierachy, but these are the framework on which our Church hangs. You need to connect to the structures and hierarchy. We all know they are not perfect, but I think that in order to have the 'prize' of unity, we must 'believe in what we cannot see' sometimes.
    
    Humility unlocks pathways that you never thought possible. I'll share that I had a huge disagreement with a bishop here in Australia. I felt catapulted to the very edges of the church, wondered whether I could ever serve and worship as a committed catholic again. One day I was in a place where this bishop was hearing confessions. I had a feeling that this was a possible turning point moment, I could talk to him, or bury this issue, and dwell on the outer perimeters of the church for the rest of my life. Somehow I was inspired to go and see him, I felt impelled to ask forgiveness for my part in the mess (even though I felt my part was minimal) I was staggered when he said to me," I would like to ask your forgiveness for the pain that this whole thing brought upon you. It must have been terrible for you" I was shocked, amazed and blessed... I hadn't expected that. I hadn't gone looking for it. I walked out of there, quite literally, "born again"! I felt that I was back in relationship with the Church and able to move on.
    
    What I'm saying is that acting in humility - motivated by love of Christ - even when it is possibly 'illogical' - can open pathways, you never imagined. There is blessing simply in trusting in God's providence despite what you see as 'true' with your eyes.
    
    I would suggest to Peter and his followers, talk to Arch. JOhn Bathersby. Say, 'sorry' for whatever you feel you have done to contribute to this mess... no, don't expect, or anticipate what the Archbishop will say. You need to simply be humble before the Lord. you cannot control the other person. No one is perfect. SAying sorry doesn't mean you weren't 'right' in some way. Humility is the 'currency' of the Gospel. Once you start to deal in it, the graces of Jesus begin to flow.
    
    That's been my experience.
    
    Don't remove yourselves from the Church. We need you.
    

    Posted By: Asdf.

33. The opinions of the supporters of "traditonal" catholicism against Fr Kennedy and the community who support him are extremely judgmental. The Gospels are more about "Judge not, and you shall not be judged", and "by this will all know you are my disciples, if you have love one for another" and "where two or three are gathered in my name, there I am in the midst of them", and so on. Yet this simple message is overlaid and dominated by dogmatic stances about valid or invalid "words"; and that is enough to justify sinking the slipper into other earnest believers? Surely these contradictions should give pause for reflection before hurling threats of penalties and excommunications. (P.S. priest, now married).

    Posted By: Peter Mansour-Nahra

34. Peter Mansour-Nahra, personally I think the squabble over specific words is not as significant as some would have it seem; however it is not so much the issue here (I believe they changed their practices). The big problem is that Fr Kennedy has started making claims that not only contradict peripheral issues of faith, but core ones.
    
    After all when you strip Jesus of his divinity and assert that there may be no life after death, what is left of Christianity besides a kind of secular humanism? While this is not, in a sense, a "bad" way to live - it's not a Christian life in the least.

    Posted By: Alex Knight

35. Peter Mansour-Nahra that is extremely judgmental of me, a “traditional” and therefore genuinely progressive Catholic.
    
    Are you being dogmatic when you propose non-dogmatism for the Church? Does it matter what an earnest believer believes? Or is it a matter of vehemence of belief? What Jesus believed got him crucified; should he have been less dogmatic about all that belief stuff? Were his words ‘valid’ or ‘invalid’ and what does that mean for the Gospels and your quoting of His words in your post?
    
    Your ‘simple’ message - ‘not judging’ ‘have love for one another’ and ‘where two or three are gathered together in my name’ is not getting through to Fr Kennedy and his followers. It is their judgmentalism of the Church, their lack of love in the subjective turn of their beliefs, and refusal to gather in Communion with the entire Catholic world at Mass that has caused this scandal to begin with.
    
    
    To reiterate the Catholic Church is some thing and not another thing. This is what identity means. Jewish identity comes from the Jewish mother, Catholic identity from the Pope to the Bishop to the person at confirmation – there is no other way. I think Fr Kennedy wants to do away with this entirely. Well he is at liberty to leave the Church and begin a Protest Church. Why does he not have the courage of his convictions? The alternative is for all connected with it to show some sense, obedience, intelligence and humbly present themselves to Our Lord at the Eucharist in an ordered way as taught by the chair of Peter ordained as such by Christ himself.
    

    Posted By: Martin Snigg

36. Aren't people allowed to question longheld beliefs? Many many people are. Don't discuss anything at the table, just throw the "unruly" out.
    
    The St Mary's community repeatedly asked for a meeting, a discussion to no avail.
    
    They have voted with their strength of convictions and feet.
    
    Many at St Mary's (n Exile) have a great love of the catholic church and have grown up in it. But as adults in the 21 century they can't just remain quiet while Mother Church wants to tell them they know best and everybody should remain silent and accept its authority. For God sake don't rock the boat!
    
    If you want to believe that all wisdom authority and truth resides in Rome, go ahead. Do you really think Jesus would agree?
    
    I am so over this dialogue when the premise is so flawed so very flawed.
    
    To reduce GOD to that is an insult in itself. The small mind of man thinking he is so right and holds the fullness of truth. You have got to be joking.
    
    Do you really believe the CC is the sole holder of the keys?
    
    Maybe some think they do, but good luck to them. I'll take my chances.
    
    Live the mystery.
    
    PeterB

    Posted By: Peter Burke

37. Peter Burke; indeed! As adults we should question ourselves and challenge ourselves to think about things. However, when one begins to strip away core components of a faith we do have to ask what is left? This raises the question of "what makes a Christian or a Catholic?" Is it just believing that we should be good and nice to one another; because you can believe in that and not be a Christian. Is it believing that Jesus was a cool dude who had some good things to say about how we should treat each other? The short answer is no. This is because there is a faith component to Christianity, which is something the community of St Mary’s seems to lack – because Fr Kennedy would have all the “magic” (for lack of a better word) stripped from our faith.

    Posted By: Alex Knight

38. Leighton, it seems from their public statements that what PK means by saying "we are in the Catholic tradition" is that he and most of the members of his denomination are ex-Catholics, and so they occasionally throw in a Catholic-invented phrase like “the Easter season” whilst simultaneously rejecting the central reality of Easter.
    
    In fact even fringe para-Christian viciously anti-Catholic groups like the 7th Day Adventists and Jehovahs Witnesses, and non-Christian religions like the Mormons and Moslems, are much more in the Catholic tradition than the Kennedyite denomination. The former at least believe SOME bits of the Nicene (or Apostles’ or Athanasian etc) Creed. Kennedy rejects ALL of it.
    

    Posted By: Ronk

39. Dear Alex
    
    It is with reservation that I write this because so such has been said and it may be futile to continue.
    
    I understand a little about the 'magic or mystery' but it is not lost, it is in every living thing "all creation awaits"
    
    It is not just about Fr Peter or the people of St Mary's(in Exile) there are many writers and theologians writing to open the bible to be seen in a new and exciting way.
    
    But it does challenge, confront, scare and excite and I think that makes for a dynamic faith or spiritual journey. I don't need to be certain about everything to have a faith 'in the unseen'.
    
    I could go on but I can't really see the point because the exile has happened (with little or no discussion with the hierarchy and one could say that the die is cast and while it hurts we may just have to accept and live with it.
    
    cheers Peter

    Posted By: Peter Burke

40. Peter,
    
    As I said, we certainly should be attempting to look at things in a new way, but the question is: how far you can progress from what is accepted whilst still remaining a Catholic? I challenge my faith every single day and attempt to look at it in new ways; I'm not the ultra-rigid kind of Catholic who says you must agree with every single official teaching of the Church to be Catholic. I do, however, not understand why people who speak so ill of the Church and reject even its most core teachings can claim to be, or would even want to be, Catholics.
    
    The thing that saddens me the most is the way the Archbishop has been treated. He actually did attempt to have dialogue with the people of St Mary’s, he gave Fr Peter second and third chances, drew the process out for as long as possible and even gave Fr Peter a surprisingly light punishment, all things considered. Read the official correspondence and you will actually see it is the community of St Mary’s who have essentially rejected any dialogue. They steadfastly refused to compromise or discuss even on the smallest issues, basically saying “we know what we’re doing is wrong but we’re okay with that!” The flaw in the dialogue was not on the Archdiocese’s part; because Archbishop Bathersby certainly attempted to address the issues diplomatically but was met with a brick wall.

    Posted By: Alex Knight

41. Peter, as I said, we certainly should be attempting to look at things in a new way, but the question is of how far you can progress from what is accepted as faith whilst still remaining a Catholic. I'm not the ultra-rigid kind of Catholic who says you must agree with every single official teaching of the Church to be Catholic. I do not, however, understand people who speak so ill of the Church and reject even its most core teachings,

    Posted By: Alex Knight

42. Martin Snigg suggests my "non-dogmatism" was being dogmatic. Expressing any opinion could be tarred with that brush. I think the Biblical message is about the kingdom of God, which can be different from club-like membership of an organised Church. Telling people to "leave the church if they don't like it" reduces the Church to a club. It ignores the fact that one's relationship with God is prior to and above membership of a church. Theology of the Bible is much deeper, and involves the universal salvific will of God. So, our Christianity must have pathways that enable salvation also for Jews, Muslims, and others whose spiritual insights respect and recognise One Divine Being. Do Catholics hold that Jews and Muslims cannot go to Heaven? Surely not. This is where I query an inflexible interpretation of dogma.

    Posted By: Peter Mansour-Nahra

43. Where do you think your Bible came from, Peter Mansour-Nahra? No, God didn’t drop it out of the sky ready made. The Catholic Church made it and gave it to you. Yes, the club that God founded and guides and protects from error. You would prefer a DIS-organised Church perhaps? Do you apply this to all the other fields of human endeavour you come into contact with, saying “This would be a lot more effective if only it wasn’t organised.”? LOL.
    
    And what does the salvation of Moslems and Jews have to do with the topic? Nobody here has claime they are not "earnest believers". Kennedy OTOH is obviously not earnest in his beliefs (apparently pantheism) otherwise he wouldn't be claiming to be Catholic. Nobody is telling him he can't have a relationship with God. Kennedy is the one saying that he doesn't and wouldn't have a relationship with God, and he ridicules those who say they do.

    Posted By: Ronk

44. Ronk, God wills the salvation of all people, to a happy eternity. The point is that the Church exists for the sake of salvation. The kingdom of heaven, the mystical body of Christ, the Church, are all terms to describe participation open to all mankind. God is the judge of “who’s in”. Card. Ratzinger wrote: "The Church is the 'universal sacrament of salvation', ..For those who are not formally and visibly members of the Church, 'salvation in Christ is accessible by virtue of a grace which, while having a mysterious relationship to the Church, does not make them formally part of the Church, but enlightens them in a way which is accommodated to their spiritual and material situation' ". cf:http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000806_dominus-iesus_en.html). It argues away the facile “outside the Church there is no salvation”. The St. Mary’s people are part of the “Church”. As for your “DISorganised” jibe, try reading about Chaos Theory: “In order there is chaos, in chaos there is order”. Sounds like a church to me.

    Posted By: Peter Mansour-Nahra

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